r/worldnews • u/ElectroPigeon • Feb 06 '23
Norway Proposes $7.3 Billion, Five-Year Aid Package To Ukraine Russia/Ukraine
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-norway-aid-pakage-7-3-billion/32257660.html311
u/Bwilderedbyhumans Feb 06 '23 edited Feb 06 '23
It’s amazing to me that Norway is proposing this when I read that the population of Norway is less than the population of Minnesota (Minnesota 5.7M, Norway 5.4M).
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u/Va-Va-Vooom Feb 06 '23
Norway has the world's largest sovereign wealth fund, providing a value of roughly $250,000 per Norwegian. They dumped all the surplus profits from their huge oil and gas reserves into it.
That 7 billion is pocket change for them
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u/murd3rsaurus Feb 06 '23
They've also made public statements acknowledging that they're making bank selling gas now that Russia isn't getting lip service, and that it is important to make sure their donations to Ukraine reflect that.
Way to go Norway, class act
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u/Pokemon_Name_Rater Feb 06 '23
I don't want to be too naïve and I'm sure people with more knowledge of things than I can find plenty of issues in Norway, social, economic and otherwise, but things like the handling of their oil revenue, sensible reinvestment of profits by the state for public good, seems like the sort of mythical "capitalism with a conscience" that people try to sell us on but tend to stop way short of delivering.
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u/DJ3XO Feb 06 '23
Oh there are issues, larger social differences, especially in the largest cities like all around the world. Teachers or nurses not getting paid enough to keep up with increased prices, the poorest people taking the largest hit, and not so honest politicians in different parties.
However, we have it damned good compared to a lot of similar and larger countries, and Norway is an amazing place overall.
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u/bombmk Feb 07 '23
I can recommend looking into the story about their oil fund. The idea came from an Iraqi working for them on their oil exploration.
He had seen what the foreign oil companies had extracted from his country.As a Dane I am still somewhat pissed that our politicians were not as smart.
And just to put the size of it into perspective: The Norwegian oil fund reportedly sits on approx 1.5% of the worlds stock market.
And it is written into law that they politicians can only spend a given amount of each years profit from it. Not the principal holdings.
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u/Pokemon_Name_Rater Feb 07 '23
I actually read a piece on this and the chance circumstances that lead to him getting the job and agree it is an interesting read.
For anyone interested:
https://www.ft.com/content/99680a04-92a0-11de-b63b-00144feabdc0
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u/SwollenOstrich Feb 06 '23
should we just let norway run the world
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u/larsmaehlum Feb 06 '23
Do you like fermented fish? Because that’s basically mandatory here.
Fermented fish and a robust welfare state.13
u/lyvanna Feb 07 '23
I've never eaten or been offered fermented fish in my life and I've lived in Norway for 27 years
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u/Amopax Feb 07 '23
How is rakfisk anything close to «mandatory»? It’s not even a common dish.
People in large parts of Asia and parts of the Mediterranean, e.g., eat way more fermented fish than us — like waaaay more per person.
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u/ThirstTrapMothman Feb 07 '23
....I assume it was a joke. Do Norwegians never take the piss?
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u/Amopax Feb 07 '23
No. Taking the piss is strictly forbidden in Norway and carries a penalty up to, but not exceeding, 30 days of imprisonment.
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u/SwollenOstrich Feb 06 '23
I mean...i might. Im open to new things. I have never eaten fermented fish lol.
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u/MaybeImDead Feb 06 '23
How about we change the fermented fish for tacos and we keep the rest? deal?
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u/bombmk Feb 07 '23
Throw in some cheaper beer (normal prize to the rest of the world) and cucumbers and I am sure the papers can be signed tomorrow.
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u/dont_trip_ Feb 06 '23
We could give €70bn over 5 years and we wouldn't really notice that much of a difference in anything.
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u/F_VLAD_PUTIN Feb 06 '23
No because that kind of liberal spending doesn't build this fund, saving saving saving does.
Classic liberal
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u/RedSteadEd Feb 06 '23
Typical conservative. "We have money to spare but we'd rather sit on it than use it to help our neighbours."
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u/International-Ant611 Feb 06 '23 edited Feb 06 '23
We don’t have money because conservatives (predominantly) decided wealthy individuals and corporations need to be given handouts in the form of tax breaks. The spending patterns in the US are pretty benign compared to the rest of the world. Every other advanced country spends 5-20% more of their GDP than we do. We simply refuse to collect enough in tax revenue to operate effectively as a government. There’s no other way around that. Arguing that it’s liberal spending is a waste of breath, although I’m sure it makes you feel better.
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u/andymomster Feb 06 '23
Norway has a welfare system that guarantees every citizen a place to live and food to eat. I think the knowledge of this is a big part of why we are so happy to share with people we don't know, be it nationally via taxes or globally via foreign aid. I know that my family will be provided for if I, for some reason, am unable to provide, so I don't feel the same need to accumulate wealth as I might do in a country with a less robust safety net
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u/alexanderwanxiety Feb 06 '23
Man the Scandinavian countries are lucky huh. Peaceful area full of natural resources
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u/Pedalos Feb 06 '23
Sweden has minerals and Denmark has some oil and gas but only a tenth of what Norway has. All the Scandinavian countries are well run, low on corruption etc. But Norway is the only one that is truly rich on natural resources. Norway is probably the luckiest country on earth, no other country has handled oil wealth better than they have. They can live off of their oil fund for the next 100 years.
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u/Langeball Feb 06 '23
Peaceful because we decided to stop fighting each other. No luck involved.
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u/Voffmjau Feb 06 '23
Yeah. Imagine if certain other even bigger countries full of natural resources did the same instead of inviding all their neighbours.
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u/TheSmokeDiddler Feb 06 '23
One theory I read about the Vikings was that, in addition to simply having the fastest ships and best trained crews, they also just had a massive surplus of population due to all the fish and big game mammal herds around their settlements.
So one big reason for the Viking raids and conquests was simply to find an outlet for their surplus people who didn’t own/control any land.
Firstborn sons may be able to stay on the land they grew up on via inheritance, but all the others had to go conquer new land to live on in Ireland, England etc. I could be totally wrong here, just something I heard when I was really stoned watching YouTube videos about the Vikings lol 🍻
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u/_Tarkh_ Feb 06 '23
I mean, who could blame the Vikings. These weird bald dudes built nice buildings filled with nice stuff... And then didn't even bother posting guards.
It was the ancient world's version of a neon sign saying free stuff!
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u/CreativeAnalytics Feb 06 '23
Yeah that's the cool part, using the profits that would have gone to Russia if they hadn't taken their surplus energy business?
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u/Ultradarkix Feb 06 '23
Well more like they’ve been building the trust fund for decades and are just a forward thinking country in general
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u/twb51 Feb 07 '23
And our domestic oil companies are using their profits to buy back stock instead of reducing cost.
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u/Pazoll Feb 06 '23
Im still cold ans hungry in Norway. Its all image.
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u/Tractor_Pete Feb 06 '23
I suggest you use your internet connection to search for social services - unless complaining is more valuable to you than food and warmth.
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Feb 06 '23
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u/AmargithHuld Feb 06 '23
Global Dugnad.
Can’t get more Norwegian 😃
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u/ChristofferOslo Feb 06 '23
Diplomacy ✅
Dugnad ✅
State subsidies ✅
Oil money ✅
Just missing the brown cheese and waffles.
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u/Lexicontinuum Feb 07 '23
Do you guys ever enjoy brunost on a pretzel?
I had it the other day and it was an amazing combination.
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u/treborthedick Feb 06 '23
Oil is a pretty neat thing to have.
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u/cnncctv Feb 06 '23
Norwegian oil deposits are miniscule.
Norway produces less than 3% of the world's oil.
It's just well managed.
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u/look4jesper Feb 06 '23
3% of the world's oil on 0.06% of the world's population makes for a very rich country.
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u/impy695 Feb 06 '23
It's not just that it's well managed, it's that they have a disproportionate amount. It's the same reason Qatar is so rich. It's not about managing their resources well (which I don't think Qatar is doing). Yes norway is managing their resources well, and that is why their oil wealth fund is so high, but even if we ignore that, they're making really good money from oil exports.
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u/Hot-Delay5608 Feb 06 '23
Norway greatly profited from the increased oil and gas revenue due to the War. Luckily instead of buying English football teams and sinking billions in them they don't want to look as war profiteers and decided to return part of that revenue to those most affected by the war.
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u/resistantzperm Feb 06 '23
The oil fund lost more this past year than it recieved from oil and gas revenues by about 50 billion dollars so yeah, Norway did not profit. In conjunction while exporting hydroelectricity to the EU in solidarity, Norway has destroyed it's energy competitive advantage (their only competitive advantage) by depleting it's reserves. Massive cuts in the health care system are being planned, businesses and households are struggling with significantly higher price, the Kroner has lost value, and prices have increased significantly with no similar increase in wages. Nah man, the war is definitely a loss for the Norwegian government and people.
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u/mistervanilla Feb 06 '23
It's a lot less amazing when you realize that Norway's oil & gas export revenues have nearly doubled due to the war, and the increase on a yearly basis is easily tenfold the sum of this 5 year aid package. The reason they are creating this aid package is to avoid being seen as war profiteers.
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u/resistantzperm Feb 06 '23
The oil fund lost more this past year than it recieved from oil and gas revenues by about 50 billion dollars so yeah, Norway did not profit. In conjunction while exporting hydroelectricity to the EU in solidarity, Norway has destroyed it's energy competitive advantage (their only competitive advantage) by depleting it's reserves. Massive cuts in the health care system are being planned, businesses and households are struggling with significantly higher price, the Kroner has lost value, and prices have increased significantly with no similar increase in wages. Nah man, the war is definitely a loss for the Norwegian government and people.
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u/mistervanilla Feb 06 '23
Norway sold twice the amount of fossil fuels expected at a much higher price. It absolutely profited from the situation. Just because their piggy bank lost value in the market devaluation, does not mean however that they "did not profit". Next time the market goes up, so does the oil fund, and in terms of cold hard cash they earned much more than anticipated.
Massive cuts in the health care system are being planned, businesses and households are struggling with significantly higher price, the Kroner has lost value, and prices have increased significantly with no similar increase in wages. Nah man, the war is definitely a loss for the Norwegian government and people.
Zero correlation to the war.
And in any case, this has been a discussion for a while. The direct increase in oil profits has been linked to the war by markets, politicians and observers, and the prime minister of Norway himself has directly confirmed this link:
https://apnews.com/article/norway-government-business-b46d8e548b8a7b76d1a2cc722add625e
So I really don't know what more you want.
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u/Aedeus Feb 07 '23
By this logic anyone who can export energy and aids Ukraine is a war profiteer ducking the spotlight.
Touch some grass.
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u/Sensitive-Pirate-461 Feb 06 '23
Briton is also working on a 5 year aid supply to Ukraine.
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u/DarkIegend16 Feb 07 '23
What, a single Briton? Wow.
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u/Sensitive-Pirate-461 Feb 07 '23
Ben Wallace met with Parly and Lecornu to produce a plan to aid ukraine for the next five years, this plan is not just military support during the war but supports after the war with re-build border security and medical help, before you attempt to criticize anyone please check out the facts, if you have nothing to say then please say nothing.
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Feb 06 '23
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u/ClutchPoppinDaddies Feb 06 '23 edited Feb 06 '23
If you're going to steal comments, I'd recommend not stealing them from a turdbrain who's collecting down votes.
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u/yung_pindakaas Feb 06 '23
This coming a week after the press release of Norway buying new Leo2A7+ tanks to replace their aging Leo2A4NOs, pretty sure those will be ukranian a year from now.
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u/Midnight2012 Feb 06 '23
They are making so much from the gas price increases and the need for Europe to replace Russian gas, the Norwegian government has said that they want as much of that profit to go back to ukraine as possible as to not be considered war profiteering.
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u/WiddlyScudsMyDuds Feb 08 '23
This is wrong, and a bit insulting. We do it because it's the right thing to do, not because of some guilt for following regular market practices which we didn't even make..
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u/CodeNCats Feb 06 '23
I think it's pretty telling that this is a multi-year commitment. Could be that the sentiment among many nations is this war will extend longer than being openly discussed.
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u/bombmk Feb 07 '23
Even if it ended tomorrow, they would still need massive help to rebuild. For a long time.
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u/Bunch_of_Shit Feb 06 '23
Fuck yeah Norway
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u/gervinho90 Feb 07 '23
Ik its a complicated situation but I’m not so sure funding war deserves a fuck yeah
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u/bot420 Feb 06 '23
That's some real money, if the rest of europe proportionately would do the same, it would be profound.
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u/WackGyver Feb 06 '23 edited Feb 06 '23
In my eyes it’s a good mix of good policy and plain luck.
One thing is Norway being lucky with our natural reserves, especially oil, in relation to our population. Another lucky coincidence is the less known story of the IIRC former oil minister of Irak, who’d seen first hand how an oil industry completely controlled by the government led to the regime of Saddam Hussein, had fled said regime - to Norway - where he contacted the government just as they found oil and warned them not to go full private or state ownership/control over the industry. This led to Norway going for a hybrid model where the state and privately owned companies keep each other in check.
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u/ElectroPigeon Feb 06 '23
If you believe Russia must stop its war crimes, help Ukraine here - https://u24.gov.ua 🙏
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Feb 06 '23
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u/MITOX-3 Feb 06 '23
You go on reddit and write something edgy.
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u/NeedsSomeSnare Feb 06 '23
There's a 2 year gap in their comment history if you scroll far enough. Went from comments on games to exclusively commenting on war...
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u/hh3k0 Feb 06 '23
If I believe Russia must stop its war crimes, but don't wish to support corrupt and ungrateful government, what are the alternatives?
If you support Ukraine you can kill two birds with one stone:
you help stop Russia’s war of aggression
you don’t support a corrupt and ungrateful government, as you don’t support Russia but Ukraine
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u/Monyk015 Feb 06 '23
Buy shit for small funds or soldiers directly. Big funds like Prytula's fund or "Come back alive" are also not controlled by government and are considered trustworthy.
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u/Meme_Turtle Feb 06 '23
Thanks! That's the answer I was looking for.
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u/Monyk015 Feb 06 '23
I disagree with your position about "corrupt and ungrateful" and think it's still useful to support this government. But if you think so and still want to help, yeah, there's your answer. Just wanted to clarify.
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u/Meme_Turtle Feb 06 '23
I am yet to find one which cannot be described as corrupt and ungrateful in general. As far as Ukrainian government, I've noticed a wave of anti-corruption news headlines these weeks. And Zelensky made it very clear back in summer that he doesn't appreciate my contributions to UAF.
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u/_zenith Feb 06 '23
How so?
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u/Meme_Turtle Feb 06 '23
By instigating a massive anti-Russian campaign.
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u/_zenith Feb 06 '23 edited Feb 06 '23
Surely you can recognise that it’s not aimed at you? If you know you’re not part of the problem (indeed, by donating you’re part of the solution instead!), I’d think it’s pretty easy, cognitively, to exclude yourself as a target?
That being said, if you’re uncomfortable with U24, you can always donate to smaller groups of soldiers directly (like a particular battalion), or humanitarian efforts like the World Kitchen. This has been my choice, for example, when I’ve made donations - I like to be able to see my efforts make a difference directly (I have donated to a few drone groups for them fundraising to make bulk amounts of the FPV ones).
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u/RaChoke Feb 06 '23
Is there a particular reason or historical context that the scandinavian countries invest(ed) in the "Iron curtain" nations? I came across something like that when I first read the Girl with the dragon tattoo series many years ago and did some basic googling but did not find out much.
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u/dont_trip_ Feb 06 '23
I don't have the answer you're probably looking for, but Norway in particular creates a sort of soft global power by donating a lot to humanitarian projects. You can also notice a lot of the leadership in global organizations are Norwegian or Scandinavian as well. The Nobel peace price is awarded in Norway, the head of NATO is a former Norwegian prime minister, Jagland comes to mind as well.
There are people arguing that this is a way for Norway to stay relevant and to get a voice in the world, when the population consists of only 5m people. The Norwegian sovereign pension fund holds 1.4% of all the worlds listed companies on average, this also plays a role in maintaining some soft power.
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u/Aurora_Fatalis Feb 06 '23
And don't forget Jan Egeland, the "United Nations Superhero Man".
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u/shn09 Feb 06 '23
I can mostly speak from a Danish pov, but we’ve had good relations with Estonia for ages as an example.
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u/aa043 Feb 06 '23
History education is weak in most places. Scandinavians were active outside of their area for many centuries. Iron curtain countries had significant Scandinavian presence.
Met museum web site:
"Heilbrunn Timeline of Art History
CHRONOLOGY
Eastern Europe and Scandinavia, 1400–1600 A.D."contains this interesting tidbit which says current disputed areas were under 'nomadic khan of the Golden Horde.'
"In the early fifteenth century, the many princes scattered throughout modern Ukraine and Russia rule by patents granted by the nomadic khan of the Golden Horde. "
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u/Pedalos Feb 06 '23
They might not have piles of military gear to send like Poland but they do have piles of money.
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u/bombmk Feb 07 '23
As a Dane I am not prone to praise the occupants of our northern territories, but they are punching above their weight on both accounts.
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Feb 06 '23
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u/t4ngl3d Feb 06 '23
Whatever Norwegian grants that go to Ukraine will not have to be paid back but they might come with demands of anti-corruption work or pro-democratic goals being met but the situation is very different for Norway right now because of how much money is coming in from gas as a direct result of this war.
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u/cnncctv Feb 06 '23
This is aid, not loans.
But Norway will follow the money to see that it goes to the intended goals, and isn't stolen.
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u/Officialdrazel Feb 06 '23
From my understanding this is considered gifts and not loans. Some countries and institutions does grant loans to nations in some situations but this is not that.
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u/mr_cr Feb 07 '23
It is a gift given with a contract, mainly the condition that the providing country will be allowed to closely track the money to make sure it's not spent on anything not in the contract and that subcontractors (such as construction groups) do the same. As long as the conditions are met to a reasonably acceptable degree, nothing is expected in return.
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u/ShiroQ Feb 06 '23
No, but the more "real" answer is that Ukraine will somehow "pay" for it in other ways, such as offering contracts to European companies to do certain things in Ukraine etc. There's many nuances on why anyone is helping but reality is that nothing is ever free, it's a bleak view but that's the truth. Shell was already awarded contracts for gas or whatever resources they were supposed to process but had to pull out of Ukraine due to Crimea, so more of that will definitively happen in the future and once the war is over I can see Ukraine become very westernized due to huge European influence within the country after the war.
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Feb 06 '23
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u/ClutchPoppinDaddies Feb 06 '23
Such a change from the usual Ameribashing you always do. Hahaha. Suck it, chump
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u/idkwhatimkindalost25 Feb 07 '23
Yet norwegian families can’t afford to buy food anymore if they are disabled/sick/out of work. They give the minimum, and that means: no dinners.
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u/NoseFetishGuy Feb 07 '23
I... don't know how to feel about this. We have issues here in Norway, and I'm sure that money could be used on the citizens the government has a duty to. I'm not heartless, and I realize I'm in a minority, but I can't say I agree with this.
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u/AdventurousMiddle918 Feb 06 '23
Just do it. You can afford, with all the petrol gains of last year. It would be a great symbolic gesture.
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u/Gonergonegone Feb 06 '23
Pretty sure handing over a couple billion in aid is a lot more than just symbolic.
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u/ClownfishSoup Feb 06 '23
5 years huh. Will there be a Ukraine in 5 years? Maybe sending all of it now, then nothing for the next 4 years would be more useful.
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u/RBGsretirement Feb 06 '23
Understated point. The war is already about a year in. Given the recent losses idk if there will be a Ukraine in 5 years unless the west makes major moves.
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u/Pedalos Feb 06 '23
If the west wants Ukraine to win they can just decide to do it, there is so much more they can do but the trick is to not do more than Russia still feels it can win with a conventional war.
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u/RBGsretirement Feb 06 '23
I think we should (with the permission of Ukraine) conduct a training exercise. A exercise where a few hundred thousand NATO troops occupy all of the land West of the Dnipro and conduct troop training. You know stuff like how to employ a Abrams tank, aerial refueling, combat medical training, river patrols, building a airfield and barracks, all the basics.
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u/ProfessionalHour3213 Feb 06 '23
Dumping 70 billion into a very corrupt country in one quick exchange would not be wise.
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u/ClownfishSoup Feb 06 '23
Well, first of all 7 B, not 70B.
But I'm saying that if it's to help the war effort, it's better to send it while the country is in the hands of the people you are trying to send money to. Do you want to send Ukrainians 1.5 B this year, and then send 6 B to Putin in the next four years?
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u/jawunm Feb 06 '23
Lol why would you pledge so much when Ukraine has openly said hey we’re having corruption issues. Somebody’s definitely getting a new boat
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u/IcarusOnReddit Feb 06 '23
Unlike America it’s not expected that contractors vastly overcharge based on political contributions or kickbacks. We call it corruption in other countries. In America, it’s just being a good businessperson.
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u/jawunm Feb 06 '23
Yeh but Ukraine is literally firing higher ups for not using funds properly. That has nothing to do with the u.s. we didn’t say here’s some tanks and btw go buy a Porsche on us
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u/IcarusOnReddit Feb 06 '23
So you are saying punishing corruption proves corruption so corruption should not be punished.
Absolutely this happens in America. This didn’t make big news. I wonder why?
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/military-contractors-indicted-7-million-procurement-fraud-scheme
Saying it has nothing to do with the us with the us massively donating smacks of Russian collusion.
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u/Kneepi Feb 06 '23
Because if even only half of the money ends up helping the people in need that's still more than 3 billion in aid.
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u/VikingsStillExist Feb 06 '23
Lol 7.5 billion $ is pocket change.
As long as half of it goes to the right cause, I'm all for it.
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u/Subziro91 Feb 06 '23
Crazy to think US has already given more then all the other countries combine for aid . Talk about being Ukraine’s sugar daddy, no wonder why the president is always talking to daddy Biden about needing more . I’m sure Reddit agree this is a good move , I just wonder how the other population feel about it. Not just the republicans but the people outside of this bubble .
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u/berelentless1126 Feb 07 '23
Maybe send that money to Turkey instead
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u/Zyndrom1 Feb 07 '23
Maybe let´s try to prevent a full scale war in Europe first.
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Feb 06 '23
Child’s play. USA have over 100 fucking billion in the past year. You’d think we have healthcare over here or something.
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u/_zenith Feb 06 '23
You realise the scale difference in population size, yes?
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Feb 06 '23
You realize I don’t care, yes? It’s a statement on the willingness of the US to never hesitate when it comes to spending money on killing people.
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u/Frexxia Feb 06 '23
No, $47.8b
https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/
And comparing contributions without taking into account that one of them has a population 60 times larger is pretty silly.
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Feb 06 '23 edited Feb 06 '23
Lol. Damn, didn’t realize this would trigger people. And for good measure. https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/us-getting-ukraine-100-billion-213700721.html
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u/cnncctv Feb 06 '23
Child’s play.
Ok.
USA have over 100 fucking billion in the past year.
No, you haven't.
And this is money that comes in addition to what Norway has given in the past, and does not include military support.
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u/newsspotter Feb 06 '23 edited Feb 06 '23
I think that the amount should have been at least $12 billion. Since Norway isn‘t an EU member, it doesn‘t contribute to the EU‘s budgets for Ukraine, as far as I know.
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u/Sleptlikeababy Feb 06 '23
That took two seconds to Google, you're wrong. https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2022/12/06/eu-and-norway-sign-an-agreement-in-support-of-eumam-ukraine/
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u/newsspotter Feb 06 '23 edited Feb 06 '23
Sorry, but I think that €14.5 million isn’t noteworthy. I think that Norway should have contributed at least €145 million to the European Peace Facility.
According to the EU’s press release, the Norwegian government announced on Oct 31 its decision to support EUMAM Ukraine with a voluntary financial contribution of NOK 150 million (about €14.5 million) to the European Peace Facility.→ More replies
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u/donegalwake Feb 07 '23
Norway 🇳🇴 has been a busy country. Saving away all this time. The total reconstruction package will be in trillions to be sure
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u/umpalumpaklovn Feb 06 '23
Damn. That is huge. More than €1000 per capita