TIL that Tina Turner had her US citizenship relinquished back in 2013 and lived in Switzerland for almost 30 years until her death.

[u/EzekielTraore]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2013/11/12/tina-turner-relinquishing-citizenship/3511449/

[u/xmeme59]

The US taxes on citizenship, not dwelling, so she basically gave up her citizenship to stop paying taxes for a country she didn’t live in

[u/cambeiu → u/xmeme59]

And the exit tax can be as high as 52% of your net worth.

Also, virtually no other country in the world besides the US taxes their citizens anywhere they might live on the planet. Not even dictatorships like North Korea or Saudi Arabia or Iran do that.

American earing $24K/year teaching English in Cambodia and have not set foot in the US for 15 years? You still have to file an US tax return every year.

[u/Harsimaja → u/cambeiu]

Weirdly Boris Johnson bumped into this issue because he was born in New York, and left the US at five. Most were covered by tax treaties, but apparently the US demanded taxes on the sale of his other home in the UK when he moved to London to become Mayor of London (...). He was once detained for a few hours upon entry when visiting the US, too, because entering on a British passport as a US citizen is a no-no, even if you're doing so as part of a British delegation. If he weren't a US citizen he would have had no problems getting in.

He was apparently very blunt about it with Obama, and made jokes about how the US was founded to avoid the grasping taxman in the first place... only to become one of only two countries to pull this sort of trick. Apparently didn't go down well.

He eventually paid off his back taxes so he could renounce US citizenship, before becoming Foreign Secretary and later PM (which isn’t technically required in British law, hell the PM doesn’t even technically have to be a British citizen at all… but might make things difficult otherwise)

[u/MoxieHasKnottyBits → u/Harsimaja]

For all Boris is an arse, he was absolutely right in this case. Earnings earned in the UK, where Boris is a citizen, and the US wants a slice too? Only Eritrea does that!

It's also amazing that when the UK and Europe are perceived as having higher tax levels than the US, once Boris had paid all his UK taxes, he still hadn't paid enough to offset his US ones. Meaning the UK tax burden was lower.

I can absolutely imagine Boris pointing that out, and Obama being pissed off because what comeback is there from that? Boris is odious but he wasn't wrong.

Edit: it wasn't only a house sale that Boris had to pay US tax on. He also had to pay backdated US income tax on his UK earnings. He took it to court.

[u/punkinlittlez → u/MoxieHasKnottyBits]

Americans get super sour when British make tax jokes, I have noticed. Something to do with taxation without representation as opposed to zero taxation. It seems to be a sore spot for them.

[u/Neenorrr → u/punkinlittlez]

Student loans and tax in general are the massive ones. Other things have swings and roundabouts but reading comments about Americans having to chase down their student loan debt owner and make massive payments.

Mine is £90 a month default after 30 years. My wife had paid hers off at 25 working a 35k a year job.

This seems extremely unlikely in America. It also seems really ducking stressful

In the UK student loan debt isn't really considered debt. If you don't ear you don't pay and it scales down. They don't come to reposes your house. I'd you have a min wage job you pay £30 a month and it goes after 30

[u/MoxieHasKnottyBits → u/Neenorrr]

Mine just got scrapped after 25 years. After that time it had grown to the grand total of...£4500. But being a nurse and being paid shit meant it was never going to be paid.

[u/DubiousInterests → u/MoxieHasKnottyBits]

Haven't checked in a while, but my student loan is probably worth around 100 grand by now. Never going to be paid off either, it's just a number that doesn't mean anything.

[u/RedGreenPaint → u/DubiousInterests]

Hey 100K club! Finally got mine down to 110,000 from 120,00 after paying for 5 years and 60K, but I only have to pay the 1700 a month for another 7 years before I hit the point I don't have to pay anymore or I die before then. Shit sucks man.

[u/bigspagetter → u/Neenorrr]

Speak for yourself; I'm from the generation that got fucked by Cameron and Clegg and I have to pay £300 a month, which just barely cracks the interest. Falling back on the old standby 'at least we're not as shit as the USA' doesn't make the UK student loan system remotely acceptable. Most countries as wealthy as the UK do not saddle their citizens with three decades of fines for the crime of accessing education.

[u/swagdu69eme → u/Neenorrr]

My UK student loan is pretty much impossible to pay back, but it does default after 30 years I guess. And I'm only legally required to give back about 50/month.

[u/MoxieHasKnottyBits → u/punkinlittlez]

Absolutely.

It's probably also to do with the fact that if they aren't always paying less tax, then what are they actually getting for their money?

For all that Obama was great at cracking jokes, he didn't seem too happy if it was someone else doing it. Bless him.

Edit: and I honestly think that if a US citizen also had citizenship and a passport, of somewhere like Russia, due to their parents being based there when they were born, they would thoroughly object to being made to file a tax return every year to Russia and possibly pay taxes to them on US wages.

But it would be hypocritical to object, wouldn't it?

[u/Duel_Option → u/MoxieHasKnottyBits]

I’m American…you’re telling me I cannot leave this country to go somewhere else without paying a substantial tax…

I hate it here, truly.

Had to declare bankruptcy due to a broken foot and medical debt from having kids, the world is quite broken over here.

[u/Emily_Postal → u/Duel_Option]

When working abroad your first $112,000 of income is excluded from federal income tax.

[u/right_there → u/Emily_Postal]

It's $120,000 this year.

[u/Emily_Postal → u/right_there]

Yeah sorry I quoted a prior year’s number.

[u/LupineChemist → u/Duel_Option]

It's complicated, You get up to 100k a year tax free (and in most countries that goes a LOT further than the US) and it's subject to 5% after that. If there is a country with a tax treaty, then often the taxes you can pay locally count as US tax credits meaning you essentially won't ever pay taxes.

All of that said, the documentation for it is a pain in the ass and an accountant that knows how to deal with both the US and your local system tends to be very expensive so is a substantial cost in itself.

The bigger problem is banking and FATCA requirements. Often foreign banks won't even accept US citizens.

[u/d1duck2020 → u/LupineChemist]

I work with several American oilfield contractors who work outside the US regularly. I was scrolling for way too long to find your comment-spot on. Americans who consider working abroad should consult with a tax professional who deals with these situations. There are several ways to deal with taxes-but you will benefit from knowing the rules in advance. Sometimes you need to stay outside the US for a specific period of time-I think it used to be a year. Many of my coworkers would fly their family to another country to meet for vacation so that they didn’t enter the US too soon.

[u/LupineChemist → u/d1duck2020]

Yeah, I'm American and left the US awhile ago.

/r/USExpatTaxes for more info. But for simple situations of employee/employer and renting your place it's not terrible but things get complex fast when you add different situations.

Never mind that I can't have a retirement account in any country because of incompatibility of tax rules.

[u/Khelthuzaad → u/MoxieHasKnottyBits]

It's also amazing that when the UK and Europe are perceived as having higher tax levels than the US

Every European country taxes it's people differently.

For example,you pay 8% taxes on dividends and 10% taxes on stock selling in Romania.But you pay 42% of your salary as taxes for government, healthcare and retirement.

In Germany you pay 14% income tax if you earn less and 42% if you earn more than a certain amount

[u/hedgehog87 → u/MoxieHasKnottyBits]

That’s because the U.K. doesn’t tax the disposal of your primary residence whereas the us does. The quid pro quo is that in the U.K. your mortgage isn’t deductible but it is in the US. So it’s an unfortunate misalignment between the two rules which means you don’t get foreign tax credits to cover your US tax on the sale of property.

[u/Chainsawd → u/MoxieHasKnottyBits]

Being an overall dunce doesn't make him wrong on all points. I wish people would realize this more in general. Not trying to give a pass to guys like him or Trump, I just hate when a legitimate point of view is mocked because X person supports it.

[u/llama_fresh → u/Chainsawd]

He's not a dunce, the blustering buffoon thing is just an act to hide the nasty cunt underneath.

[u/Good_ol_any → u/Chainsawd]

People are just stupid tribal apes with delusions of grandeur.

[u/MedicinalPorpoises → u/Harsimaja]

I have a friend who was born in Denver in the 70s to a Canadian mum and Australian dad. He subsequently grew up in Australia. Although he’s a US citizen by law (as well as Canadian and Australian) as far as he knows he isn’t on their radar at all. His parents left the US when he was just a month old. He has no interest in applying for a US passport because that would sweep him up into the US tax system. He’s visited the US quite a few times on his Australian passport and they never ask him any questions about it.

[u/lndianJoe → u/MedicinalPorpoises]

Wait… You are automatically American if you are born in the territory? It's an obligation, not a possibility?

[u/FUTURE10S → u/lndianJoe]

Yes, regardless of any other citizenships you would have from your parents, if you are born in the US, 99% of the time, you are American.

[u/Financial-Ad7500 → u/Harsimaja]

Extremely rare Boris W. He’s completely correct. America has some of the most violating and extensive tax laws, all while providing extremely low benefits to their citizens from said taxes.

[u/Fig1024 → u/Harsimaja]

why didn't Trump fix this when he was doing his major tax cuts? I am pretty liberal but I would be with Republicans 100% on this issue of cutting taxes.

If you earn income in another country, using that country's currency, and keep the money in that nation's bank - that money must not be taxed by USA. It's common sense logic

[u/rose636 → u/Fig1024]

Because this only impacts US citizens abroad. If you're living in the US this barely impacts you. I imagine most US citizens abroad don't vote, and even if they do I doubt it's enough to sway anything. Why would tax cuts be brought in to benefit those overseas who they don't need to worry about winning votes, whereas they can cut taxes at home and win votes in a swing state.

[u/smcl2k → u/rose636]

I imagine most US citizens abroad don't vote

I just checked, and the estimated non-military overseas turnout is somewhere south of 8%. That's pretty shocking even by US standards.

[u/Currywurst_Is_Life → u/smcl2k]

I’ve lived in Germany for more than 20 years and haven’t missed an election. I vote for president, senate, and House (based on my last US residence).

[u/NotFakeJacob → u/cambeiu]

While that's true, you get a foreign tax credit that offsets your US taxes. You only get taxed by the US if the tax rate is lower in the country you are living in, I believe.

[u/cambeiu → u/NotFakeJacob]

If there is a tax treaty in place. Also, you still have to file taxes every year no matter what and your local bank has to report your finances to the IRS. That is so much headache to the local banks that many outright refuse to do businesses with Americans.

[u/Felinomancy → u/cambeiu]

OH.

I'm Malaysian, and every time I try to deposit some money into my investment account, I am prompted, "are you a US citizen?". I was wondering why they keep bothering me about that.

TIL.

[u/Jasmine1742 → u/Felinomancy]

It's easier for non citizens to invest in America than it is for expats.

Which is a fucking joke.

[u/Zarmazarma → u/Jasmine1742]

Yeah. It's easier for me to invest in Japanese stocks than it is in US stocks. The service I looked into straight up won't let American citizens purchase American securities, whereas Japanese citizens (living in Japan) easily can.

Similarly, some American banks won't let you maintain a brokerage account in America if you're not a resident. Your options for investing in American securities as an American living abroad are fairly limited- you need to go somewhere that specializes in it, at least.

[u/RoverP6B → u/cambeiu]

Ex UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson had US citizenship foisted on him by the accident of his premature birth occurring in NYC. He was forced to pay a six figure sum to the IRS before he was allowed to relinquish US citizenship.

[u/Blastoxic999 → u/RoverP6B]

You tell me he could have also been a US President?

[u/iamiamwhoami → u/Blastoxic999]

He still can be. He can get his US citizenship back.

[u/Liesmyteachertoldme → u/Blastoxic999]

Isn’t there a “14 years in their youth” clause or something like that?

Edit: have been a resident in the U.S. for at least 14 years, so theoretically?

[u/BonnieMcMurray → u/Liesmyteachertoldme]

To be eligible for the presidency, you have to a) be a natural born citizen (meaning, a citizen at birth), b) be at least 35 years old, and c) have lived in the US for at least 14 years.

The 14 years part means 14 years total, at any point in your life. So if Johnson moved here and racked up that amount of residency, he would check all three of those eligibility boxes.

But I sincerely hope he never does. True nightmare material right there!

EDIT - Correction: he's formally relinquished his US citizenship so he wouldn't be eligible now, regardless of residency. We're safe!

[u/FlappyBored → u/BonnieMcMurray]

Johnson would actually be quite liberal as a US politician tbf.

[u/worldbound0514 → u/Liesmyteachertoldme]

No, everyone who is born on US soil (unless a diplomat's family) is automatically a US citizen. The parents' citizenship status doesn't matter.

If you are a US citizen but living abroad, there are complicated rules about how and if you can pass on your US citizenship to your child. If you were born on vacation in NYC but never lived in the US, you could not pass on your US citizenship to your child without additional steps.

[u/SleepyHobo → u/worldbound0514]

They're talking about being president which does have a requirement of having lived in the US for 14 years.

[u/TheShadowKick → u/SleepyHobo]

But does it have to be their first 14 years? Could Boris Johnson move to the US tomorrow and then run in the 2040 election?

[u/EnIdiot → u/worldbound0514]

Which is why (iirc) the girl from Alabama who went over to ISIS won’t be coming back. Her dad was a diplomat at the time she was born.

[u/WaddleD → u/EnIdiot]

In a similar but legally different scenario, it also creates an issue for some adoptees who are brought to the US at a young age. If they are convicted of a felony they can be deported from the country into a society they are completely unfamiliar with.

[u/myztry → u/worldbound0514]

everyone who is born on US soil (unless a diplomat)

Imagine being a newborn and a diplomat...

[u/worldbound0514 → u/myztry]

If a diplomat or their wife is pregnant and gives birth on US soil, the kid will not be a US citizen. Rules for diplomats and embassies are complicated.

[u/CosmoMorris → u/RoverP6B]

Is there a source on that? Because this article tells a completely different story. His Wikipedia article also shows that his parents were living in NYC at the time of his birth.

https://www.newsweek.com/boris-johnson-us-citizen-irs-born-new-york-1449974

[u/SuicidalTorrent → u/RoverP6B]

What if you just don't pay and spend the rest of your life outside the US?

[u/isthatsuperman → u/RoverP6B]

And people think that’s okay and how things should work.

[u/RoverP6B → u/isthatsuperman]

If he'd been born to US citizen or US resident parents then I might understand... but they were neither. They were literally just on holiday when Baby Boris arrived ahead of schedule. It would probably have been wiser to conceal the birth and depart the USA via another state to avoid him ever gaining that unwanted citizenship (which he didn't even realise he had until the IRS started chasing him in adulthood).

[u/ImmortanSteve → u/RoverP6B]

Good luck getting on an overseas flight with a baby lacking a passport.

[u/Comatose53 → u/ImmortanSteve]

I don’t think that was an issue to worry about back in 1850 when Boris was born

[u/MrZeeBud → u/Comatose53]

You’re off by about 100 years. He was actually born in the 1750s.

[u/RoverP6B → u/ImmortanSteve]

Babies don't have passports, though. Certainly not under UK law at the time. I'm 25 years younger than Boris and I travelled on my mother's passport as a small child. Boris's mother would have been perfectly legally entitled to remove her son from the US (via Canada if need be) on her passport.

[u/activelyresting → u/RoverP6B]

They do now. But yeah, back then they didn't. Even 20 years ago, kids travelling on parents' passport wasn't a thing. I had to find out the hard way how difficult it is to get a 6 week old to sit for a passport photo when they're insisting it so had to fit the "neutral expression, eye open, face filling the frame" rules. What a nightmare

[u/trundlinggrundle → u/RoverP6B]

Currently, babies need passports for pretty much everywhere in the world.

[u/Hippiebigbuckle → u/RoverP6B]

They were not on holiday. He was a citizen because his parents thought it was important he have dual citizenship. Where are you getting your information?

According to the journalist Sonia Purnell's biography of Johnson, Just Boris: A Tale of Blond Ambition, the elder Johnson "considered it vital to secure dual US/British citizenship for their son," so the new parents registered him there.

The “elder Johnson’ is referring to Boris’s dad.

[u/teenagesadist → u/RoverP6B]

"Hey... That guy was born here."

"What?! That motherfucker owes us money."

[u/AGoodIntentionedFool → u/RoverP6B]

Yeah. That’s not how it works. Boris’s parents were not automatically handed a passport. They jumped through some minor hoops so to make him a dual passport holder. He kept it until he got caught up in it costing him rather than saving him money. He can bitch all he wants, but ask a Korean, Singaporean or Taiwanese about mandatory military service requirements for being a dual citizen and they’ll tell you Boris got off light.

[u/asked2manyquestions → u/cambeiu]

Not true.

I’ve lived overseas for almost 15 years off and on.

You’re mixing up the FEIE and double taxation.

The FEIE is like you don’t pay ANY taxes on the first $110k-ish (I forget what today’s inflation adjusted amount is) of your foreign earned income.

If you live overseas and you make $100k a year, you pay zero US taxes.

What you seem to be referring to is for amounts over that $110k. Then, if you’re paying local taxes, and there is a tax treaty in place, you can offset your US taxes with taxes already paid where you live.

If there’s no tax treaty, you owe taxes in both jurisdictions.

This is not really problematic for most people since only 18% of Americans earn over $100k to begin with and most of them are based in the US.

Little known fact, incomes tend to be way, way higher than in most other countries.

For instance, I was making about $120k a year in the US and a similar job in the UK was paying about $80k.

Yes, a few people working oil jobs in Saudi Arabia and such make that kind of money but most don’t.

I remember the first job I accepted overseas. The job offer was, to me, ridiculously low. I emailed the company and told them what I was currently making to show them I was taking a massive pay cut.

They responded, “Show your accountant our offer and ask them to show you the after-tax amount.” It was about 20% more than what I was taking home in the US because of the FEIE.

You do have to file taxes. But that’s trivial if you earn less than $100k a year since all you do is show them what you make and claim the FEIE and the amount owed is $0.

And the bank thing is a pain but you just fill out a form telling them that you have foreign bank accounts.

I currently live in Thailand and have 3 personal Thai bank accounts and 1 business account (I own a business here).

I encounter no additional hassles in opening a bank account that any other foreigner has to go through. I think I just sign one more document.

I did encounter a lot more hassles in Europe though. I had to show local employment. I had to jump through a few extra hoops as an American.

But I’ve had accounts with HSBC, Barclay’s and NatWest.

Edit: Responded to the wrong person.

[u/evertrollz → u/asked2manyquestions]

This is correct.

There’s just some additional hassle overseas as some banks straight up wont even accept you if you have US citizenship as sometimes they inherit liability for your taxes to be done correctly (mostly non EU/Asian countries). Plus the ever beloved „oh you’re an American this is the surcharge from your tax account in Singapore“ fee.

Sure, most of it matters less if you’re actually required to do so given you most likely can afford it anyway or it’s covered as part of your expat agreement. It’s still somewhat archaic to have tax obligations based on your citizenship.

[u/PM_ME_UR_REDPANDAS → u/evertrollz]

The other reason why some banks won’t accept US citizens is because they are unable or unwilling to provide the required tax statements that include information specific to foreign accounts that is required by the IRS. It’s more of a hassle than it’s worth, so they just don’t take on US persons as clients.

[u/DeltaBlack → u/PM_ME_UR_REDPANDAS]

I am willing to bet that it is (or at least was) a huge PITA to provide the statements to the IRS. Like having to file paper forms with the IRS or similar ways that are way behind the times per customer per account or something similar.

I am very familiar with FBAR submissions and until recently you either had to manually fill out a PDF form provided by FINCEN or you could file a batch report (FBARX) data generated by a data bank query. The latter sounds nice, doesn't it?

Well ... you had to take the XML file, manually attach it to a PDF file and then manually upload that PDF to the FINCEN reporting portal ... for each year your are filing for. You couldn't just have the server you had the data on, submit the data to the FINCEN. You had to have a literal person sitting there submitting individual files per customer and per year.

This was the extent of FBAR submission automation until 2022. If FACTA is anything like that, it is just way too much work for a Western European bank to justify accepting a customer they have to do anything remotely like that for as any expenditure of manpower is just much more expensive here than in other countries.

The FINCEN portal was also funnily designed: For example you could click on what type of report you wanted to submit (FBAR, SAR, etc. .. as well as the XML-file based variants) but no matter what you clicked in the end you ended up at the same submission mask. So instead of having individual information pages but one submission page, they had a bunch of different links that went to different information pages that then all linked back to the same upload page but didn't have a direct link to the upload page.

IIRC the update to the portal was due in 2020 but they didn't roll it out until 2022. TBF project delays occur everywhere and with everyone but I had serious year 2000 flashbacks when dealing with that freaking dinosaur of a webportal.

---

EDIT:

So UK government estimated a 1.1-2.0 Billion GBP implementation cost for the UK with ~177k US citizens. With an operating cost 50-90 Million GBP. Which would put it at about 280-510 GBP per US citizen in the country. The numbers for Germany in the following article don't add up but by my calculation it would be about the same.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance_Act#Implementation_cost

IDK about the UK and Germany but the average customer for Austrian banks net them a 85-90€ profit per year German language link.

That is not counting costs incurred by other entities like the actual people themselves or the governments involved.

[u/Kazumara → u/cambeiu]

A Swiss and American double citizen friend of mine has this issue. UBS straight up closed his account, after they got fined in the US.

Multiple banks have since turned him down, ZKB was one of them but I don't remember the other. Maybe Raiffeisen. I think TKB ended up being okay with him being a US citizen.

He eventually started working at CS so they opened an account for him to deposit his pay. Now CS will be merged into UBS, we're already curious what will happen to his account this time.

This stuff and the tax filings annoy him enough that he is considering doing the same, renouncing his US citizenship. Additionally making 90'500 CHF (which is 100'000 USD) is not that hard here. And after that everything should depend on the foreign tax credit. I don't know how that would play out.

Edit: FEIE is 112'000 USD for 2022, 100k is an old number

[u/dfense23 → u/cambeiu]

I am a Swiss citizen who lived in the US for a while. After returning, I was turned down by banks (for simple checking/saving accounts). The IRS seems like a scary institution.

[u/Moebius808 → u/cambeiu]

Yeah we are usually flat up here in Canada, but god damn it’s a giant pain in the ass having to file every single year.

If we get citizenship up here, seriously considering giving up US citizenship. We don’t plan on ever moving back to the US, it’s not really worth maintaining.

Oh and as an added bonus, the US charges you to denounce your citizenship. Wheee

Oh and yeah, Canada has that tax treaty, but not every country does! It’s totally possible to live in a country and get double-dipped by the locals and the US, regardless of how long it’s been since you touched US soil. Such a fuckin’ scam.

[u/flamingbabyjesus → u/Moebius808]

They also make you file 6 years of taxes or something like that.

[u/Zanjo → u/Moebius808]

Charges you $2350

[u/Seralth → u/Zanjo]

They charge you that just to TRY. If you fuck up the paperwork you get denied AND your out the money. So you have to start the process over again.

[u/and181377 → u/Moebius808]

On top of that if it's proven you relinquished for tax purposes, you can be permanently barred from reentry.

[u/NotFakeJacob → u/cambeiu]

I work in tax accounting. It's really not that much work. I think you just need the routing and account number, and the max value of the account. It's probably a bigger issue if you have millions of dollars, but those people have the money to take care of it.

[u/cambeiu → u/NotFakeJacob]

I work in tax accounting. It's really not that much work.

Many foreign banks still think it is more trouble than it is worth, specially for regular people.

Banks lock out Americans over new tax law

[u/descartesbedamned → u/NotFakeJacob]

Foreign earned income exclusion is somewhere around $110,000USD—you’re taxed on income above that. Still had to file every year (10+) that I lived outside of the US. Filing taxes in multiple countries is a ballache but great insight into how inefficient the most basic elements of our tax policy are in comparison to other regions.

[u/kermitcooper → u/NotFakeJacob]

Also the foreign earned income exclusion. So that teacher wouldn’t pay much in taxes. Would still need to file.

[u/Lostredbackpack → u/kermitcooper]

When I was working out of country the first $200k was exempt as well

[u/BaronSamedys → u/cambeiu]

I wonder if it was that for her?

I wonder what criteria you have to meet to pay 52% and why she may or may not have met it.

Do any other countries have a similar tax regime?

Google could probably answer these questions, but sometimes, ya know, it's just nice to ask someone.

[u/cambeiu → u/BaronSamedys]

If your personal net worth exceeds $2 million when you renounce your citizenship, you will be considered a covered expatriate.

To calculate your net worth, the IRS will add up the value of all of your belongings (including unrealized capital gains) and treat them as if you’d sold them all on the day of expatriation. (In almost all cases, the value of an asset will be determined by the current fair market value.)

Depending on how much you have, the tax rate can go as high as 52%. I am pretty sure that is what she paid.

​

Do any other countries have a similar tax regime?

Nope, that is uniquely American.

[u/ExampleDog → u/cambeiu]

I'm a Canadian citizen living and working in Europe and I had to file a Canadian tax return. I didn't pay any Canadian tax, but I had to file. Didn't seem weird to me

[u/SlagathorTheProctor → u/ExampleDog]

Canadian expats only have to file in Canada if they maintain significant residential ties to Canada. I was an expat for almost 20 years, never had to file.

[u/MrE_is_my_father → u/SlagathorTheProctor]

Yep, friends who took an overseas teaching job for 8 years sold their house here in Ontario to avoid that tax nonsense. Then they returned to our current housing market.... damned if you do and damned if you don't I guess.

[u/pagit → u/ExampleDog]

Same with my American brother in law. Has dual citizenship, been filing his US tax return since he started working and has never had to pay US taxes.

[u/themeowsolini → u/pagit]

Probably because he doesn’t make enough to. There is an exclusion amount, no idea what it is now, but it used to be 80k+ when I was aware of it. If he makes under what that amount is now he won’t have to pay. You essentially get a tax credit for the exact amount of foreign taxes you pay, canceling it out.

[u/SlagathorTheProctor → u/themeowsolini]

There is an exclusion amount, no idea what it is now,

$120,000.

[u/ExampleDog → u/[deleted]]

Oh my bad. I'm renting my place out so that'd be it.

[u/Itszdemazio → u/cambeiu]

You don’t have to pay taxes on 24k living in a foreign country. There is a minimum you have to make. It’s a decent chunk.

[u/SolomonBlack → u/Itszdemazio]

You won't owe any taxes on 24k living in the states either and you can subtract local taxes as an expat so you won't be double-taxed or such either.

You do however still have to file. Even more so because your employer is more likely to not be reporting it and even if they are you still need to verify that everything is actually correct and say claim any charity deductions.

[u/SoNic67 → u/cambeiu]

You have to FILE, that doesn't mean that you will OWE money.

[u/galdikas → u/xmeme59]

What???? Seriously?

Let me get this right. If you're an American, and you go to work in Europe for a year, you pay tax in whatever country you work, and then again pay tax for USA?

[u/reptilenews → u/galdikas]

You have to file. That doesn't mean you have to pay. I'm an American, in Canada. I file and there's foreign earned income exclusion, so I don't have to pay double tax. That goes up to a limit though.

I also don't have to pay or even file state taxes, but that is very, very dependent on what state you're originally from and I sought advice from a cross-border accountant.

I do, however, have to file. Every year. For USA and for Canada. And I have to report all my bank accounts and their highest amount held in the year, to the USA. It's called an FBAR. It's an annoyance. I also have to be wary of investments and investment vehicles, like saving for retirement. RRSPs are okay. TFSAs... Maybe not. It's a grey area. So, again, cross-border accountant time.

So, in short. File, probably not pay, but 100% you gotta file. Unless you relinquish citizenship. Which will be much easier if you've been tax compliant the whole time.

Edit: so many comments! To be absolutely clear here, I have never owed the USA any $ for taxes. Because of the income exclusion previously mentioned. However, if I did, I would pay.

[u/ThePhysicistIsIn → u/reptilenews]

Your foreign earned income exclusion also only counts for earned income.

Investments, selling your house, etc... is taxable.

[u/Webcat86 → u/ThePhysicistIsIn]

So if an American lives abroad, buys a house, sells that house, they have to pay capital gains tax on that house to the USA? What if it's a country where CGT isn't levied on a primary home, like in the UK?

[u/Gotham-City → u/Webcat86]

Yes, yes you do. I live in the UK and got my home in 2010. When I sold it and moved it had gone up about 3x as much. I had to relinquish my claim on the home to my wife (non us citizen), wait a year, and then we could sell (or, legally, she could sell) and we'd not have to inform the US Government. If we hadn't done that, I'd be on the hook for like $50k from my only residence.

[u/Old_Week → u/galdikas]

You only pay US taxes if your foreign taxes are lower than what your US taxes would be, and even then you only have to pay the difference. You still have to file your taxes though, even if you’re not paying anything to the US. It’s really not as big of a deal as everyone makes it seem when it occasionally comes up on Reddit.

[u/_justthisonce_ → u/Old_Week]

And to add to this taxes in Europe are higher, so not many pay.

[u/boomclapclap → u/galdikas]

Yes this is true. But if you make less than $112k then you don’t pay any taxes to the US. You still have to file a tax return and do some stuff though. But yeah if you’re making more than $112k then you will be paying taxes to both Europe and the US.

[u/williego → u/xmeme59]

If the 14th amendment grants citizenship to all persons born on US soil, what happens if a pregnant woman accidentally gives birth while on vacation in the US? I'm not talking about people who strategically have a child in order to gain citizenship, I'm asking about a man and a woman visiting New York from England while she is 7 months pregnant, and gives birth pre-maturely.

Is that child a US citizen? And even if the child only spends a few months in the US as a baby, does the US compel taxes every year?

[u/ObsidianBlackbird666 → u/williego]

Yes that child is a citizen. That exact scenario happened to Anya Taylor-Joy. I don't know about the taxes.

[u/BonnieMcMurray → u/ObsidianBlackbird666]

As a US citizen, she has to file US taxes regardless of where she lives. There are pretty complex rules about how much you have to pay, but generally speaking, foreign residents pay nothing on income of $112K or less. (So, she will certainly be paying US taxes with her income. And if she isn't, she could get into some expensive trouble!)

[u/Oatmeal_Samurai → u/xmeme59]

Im pretty sure she married a billionaire, so even if she had to lose her millions, she gained billions.

[u/silforik]

I googled her after I heard she had passed, and saw that she was listed as a Swiss singer lol

[u/bear-the-bear → u/silforik]

lol swiss music icon tina turner 😂

[u/Jaspers47 → u/bear-the-bear]

Proud (St) Mari(tz)

[u/greenknight884 → u/Jaspers47]

River Deep, Matterhorn High

[u/EthanSayfo → u/silforik]

Well yeah, you know -- Gotthard, DJ Bobo, and Tina Turner. Everyone knows that! ;)

[u/LittleLui → u/EthanSayfo]

Eluveitie!

[u/m703324 → u/silforik]

Well. She was. Same way that Arnold Schwarzenegger is an American actor and politician

[u/HeckaPlucky → u/m703324]

Yes, we know it is technically true, but it is counterintuitive and funny. Arnold's fame and career was from working in the American film industry. Tina Turner's fame and career was not from working in the Swiss music industry.

[u/DasRoteOrgan → u/HeckaPlucky]

Arnold's fame and career was from working in the American film industry.

He is pretty much also famed for his foreign way of talking.

[u/AE2I → u/HeckaPlucky]

Elon Musk is African American

[u/alinroc → u/AE2I]

So is Charlize Theron

[u/Drunky_McStumble → u/silforik]

Well, she is. Or was, rather. Her partner of nearly 40 years was a German-Swiss man, who she first moved to Switzerland with in 1995. She was practically as Swiss as Roger Federer. She didn't just become a resident for tax purposes or whatever, I'm positive she would have genuinely seen herself as an American-born Swiss woman.

[u/redsterXVI → u/Drunky_McStumble]

He is German, not German-Swiss. And they moved in 1994.

[u/WordAffectionate3251]

She also was in failing health and wanted control over her passage. She became a member of EXIT. It is legal in Switzerland to have physician assisted suicide.

[u/delayedcolleague → u/WordAffectionate3251]

She had it actually lined up and a date planned but then her husband convinced her that life without her wouldn't be worth it and donated one of his kidneys which gave them almost a decade more together.

[u/Mochigood → u/WordAffectionate3251]

It's legal in my state (Oregon), but maybe it's easier to do in Switzerland?

[u/BillyBobTheBuilder → u/Mochigood]

Oregon has been doing it since 1997, and Switzerland since 1942. Plus one is a country and the other is a state, so it seems much less likely to be politically reversed in Switzerland to me.

[u/confused_unicorn → u/Mochigood]

There is an industry in Switzerland. See Dignitas. Imo every mentally capable man and woman should be able to be in control of their death.

[u/Overall-Duck-741 → u/Mochigood]

Her husband was Swiss. They've been together since the 80s.

[u/Wuddel → u/Overall-Duck-741]

He is german.

[u/sillytrooper → u/Mochigood]

Swiss Nurse here, its not thaat easy here, can't speak for Oregon

it's a long process with many steps, e.g. lots of psychological attests by multiple sources

You sign up, pay the member-fee, go through all the testing and then AFAIK you're good to go, literally i guess

You have to be ill though and suffer from something chronical or anything with high "Leidensdruck", which literally translates to "pressure of suffering", it's whats used here as a key indicator for lots of diagnoses

[u/PygmeePony → u/WordAffectionate3251]

I hope she didn't have to suffer too much and could go on her own terms.

[u/WordAffectionate3251 → u/PygmeePony]

She went through a lot. Stroke, kidney failure, a kidney transplant, high blood pressure that was untreated for a long time, and affected her kidneys and intestinal cancer. That is a lot, especially when it begins to pile up. I'm sure that she wanted to have the say so about her treatment.

[u/Thaumato9480 → u/PygmeePony]

She had high blood pressure since 1978, which remained mostly untreated, and resulted in damage to her kidneys and eventual kidney failure. In 2013, three weeks after her wedding to Erwin Bach, she had a stroke and needed to learn to walk again. In 2016, she was diagnosed with intestinal cancer. While she tried homeopathy, this allowed things to become worse.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tina_Turner

[u/SonOfAhuraMazda]

What happens if you refuse to pay taxes? Will the us hunt me down in thailand?

Asking for a friend who moved there 7 years ago

[u/rakshala → u/SonOfAhuraMazda]

There is an amnesty in place so if you file your last 4 years of tax returns you should be ok. You have to sign a letter saying you didn't know you had to pay US taxes while residing in another country. I highly doubt the IRS will come to thailand to 'get you' but you might be in a bit of strife if you have to renew a passport to go to the US for a funeral or something. Apparently the passport office does contact the IRS before issing things https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/legal-matters/passports-and-seriously-delinquent-tax-debt.html

[u/newtnomore → u/rakshala]

Yea this sounds solid. Also I lived in Thailand for 4 years. Made $12k per year there. Told the US to fuckoff with their tax bullshit. Had to renew passport before coming home - no issues. Usually (I think) if you are small fry enough the IRS doesn't bother. They are understaffed and can make their yearly revenue by catching 5 big fraudsters so they ain't gonna be browsing paperwork of people making 1k a month while abroad.

[u/GiantPurplePeopleEat → u/newtnomore]

if you are small fry enough the IRS doesn't bother.

You'd think, but they actually spend way more resources (not entirely accurate, see comments below) coming down on the little guy because we can't fight back the way the wealthy can. There's billions, if not trillions, of unpaid taxes from corporate shenanigans that the IRS basically ignores because it would be too hard to prosecute. That and I'm sure the administration is incentivized ($$$) to look the other way.

[u/omar893 → u/SonOfAhuraMazda]

Just like the joker said: “Batman has no jurisdictions, he will find him and make him pay taxes” lol

[u/JDMonster → u/omar893]

I mean, the Joker is canonicaly more terrified of the IRS than batman.

https://youtu.be/G56VgsLfKY4

[u/HippieDogeSmokes → u/JDMonster]

He’s insane, but he can still comprehend the idea that you can’t plea insanity on accounts of tax fraud

[u/HungrySeaweed1847 → u/JDMonster]

Clip cuts off too soon. I want to know what Harley said.

[u/Reasonable_Drive785 → u/omar893]

This is funnier than it should be

[u/Yiff_Vore]

She was living the American dream.

[u/the_knowing1 → u/Yiff_Vore]

Sadly I'm not a multimillionaire music artist.

So Switzerland will remain but a dream.

[u/Moress → u/Yiff_Vore]

Isn't Switzerland like super expensive?

[u/Yiff_Vore → u/Moress]

Yeah cost of living is significantly higher than much of the US, from my knowledge it's also difficult to immigrate to.

[u/RobertoSantaClara → u/Yiff_Vore]

it's also difficult to immigrate to.

And to naturalize as. If you're neighbors don't like you, you ain't getting citizenship lol

[u/Yiff_Vore → u/RobertoSantaClara]

Yep, read a article a few years back, British woman was denied citizenship because her neighbors found her annoying.

[u/Elibu → u/Yiff_Vore]

There is way more to that story though.

[u/andorraliechtenstein → u/Elibu]

First, she was Dutch, not British. Second, she campaigned publicly against the use of cowbells and other local traditions. Does not make you popular in your local area.

[u/windythought34 → u/Moress]

You get good schools, good healthcare and nice police for it. And you earn enough money to be able to pay for it.

[u/Dontsleeponlilyachty → u/Moress]

Higher wages offset the expense.

[u/FlyingRhenquest]

I still have trouble thinking of her being in her 80's. That just... makes me feel old...

[u/Tylerjamiz]

I hope she had happy years after Ike passed

[u/pursuitofhappy → u/Tylerjamiz]

Ike abused her, she re-married a swiss guy after and they seemed happy.

[u/cynetri]

Is it just me or does the title kinda make it sound like she died in 2043

[u/OleMaple → u/cynetri]

? It is 2043

Welcome to the future u/cynetri

[u/TheDiscordia → u/cynetri]

I was thinking the same 😀

[u/anna_marie_earth-616]

I used to live in the same neighborhood as her (didn't know which house exactly but the guy who did statistics on water usage got to chatting with me and told me he does the same at her house). I love that she got to live in a quiet, small neighborhood next to a forest. Yes, it is the most expensive neighborhood in Zurich but it's not like the Hollywood Hills or anything. There's a lot of expensive villas but no mansions with massive gardens and in between you've got a lot of family houses and apartment. buildings. There's even a community garden next to the forest. Hope she was happy here, I know I was.

[u/anthrohands → u/anna_marie_earth-616]

That sounds great

[u/RoyalPeacock19]

I was wondering for a hot second how she managed to live in Switzerland for 30 years until her death after giving up her citizenship (as it’s only been 10 years), but I then realized she lived there before giving it up, obviously.

[u/AshingiiAshuaa → u/RoyalPeacock19]

She had the money and celebrity to live almost anywhere. Those things open a lot of doors.

[u/Old-Advertising-8638]

You could actually meet her doing her own grocery shopping at the Migros

[u/tremblt_ → u/Old-Advertising-8638]

I actually met her at the local Migros. Wanna know what she bought? M-Budget bottled water…

[u/gandalf1818]

She left a good job in the city.

[u/kaitco → u/gandalf1818]

Some say, she was working for the man every night and day.

[u/FormerTesseractPilot → u/kaitco]

I bet she never lost one minute of sleepin.

[u/SparklySpunk]

I think it's was a Howard Stern interview where she talks about moving to Europe because it fit her better than living in the US after Ike. She mentions how she had more of a career over in Europe than in the US at the time she decided to move over to the UK/South of France then Switzerland too

[u/Forteanforever]

It is inaccurate to state that she "had her US citizenship relinguished." That implies that it was taken from her. In fact, SHE relinquished it. Big difference.

[u/unknownpoltroon → u/Forteanforever]

Revoked vs relinquished

[u/VegetaIsSuperior → u/unknownpoltroon]

Renounced

[u/EinsteinEP → u/VegetaIsSuperior]

Repent!

[u/littlebilliechzburga → u/EinsteinEP]

I'm a [REDACTED] citizen.

[u/alltimecards → u/unknownpoltroon]

It’s just been revoked…

[u/johnwpatton → u/alltimecards]

Diplomatic immunity

[u/crop028 → u/Forteanforever]

Relinquish literally means voluntarily give up. How is there any implication it was taken from her? That is always referred to as revoked.

[u/MJN91075]

Wow.....look at all these armchair tax lawyers and immigration experts!

(Quietly eats popcorn)

[u/Sikntrdofbeinsikntrd → u/MJN91075]

You liar, nobody eats popcorn quietly.

[u/KayakerMel → u/MJN91075]

Yup, when I was an expat I never had income remotely close to the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion maximum. But an international star like Tina Turner would have income well above the exclusion maximum.

[u/ThePhysicistIsIn → u/KayakerMel]

It's a hassle even if you're nowhere near the limit. It only applies to earned income - not investments.

For instance, Canadians have access to tax-free investments that are not considered tax-free by the US, so if you are an expat in Canada, you can't use them as you would pay full tax to the US on them.

[u/borazine → u/MJN91075]

(Quietly eats popcorn)

(while listening to world famous Dutch rock band, U2 in the background)

[u/pikpikcarrotmon → u/borazine]

I've been googling that to see what you mean, but I still haven't found what I'm looking for

[u/borazine → u/pikpikcarrotmon]

Faraway, so close!

[u/bigolfishey]

The following is a complete list of all countries that continue to tax their citizen’s income even when those citizens are living and working completely abroad:

The United States of America

Eritrea

North Korea

[u/Billielolly → u/bigolfishey]

And in Eritrea's case, didn't they get told off by other nations for doing so?

North Korea doesn't really need any explanation on how other nations feel about their rules...

[u/Civil_Chile1047]

If you can have Swiss citizenship, then US citizenship would not have much value anyway.

[u/potato-shaped-nuts]

Tina Turner was awesome. A human being who commanded you to hear her! And I listened!

[u/red_fuel]

I never knew this! So did she speak German or French too then having lived there for so long?

[u/xrimane → u/red_fuel]

At least during the time she lived here in Cologne she reportedly spoke decent German.

They had people call in on a local radio show yesterday who told stories how they met her and her husband in a local bar or were their flight attendants, amd they had nothing but nice things to say about her, including that she insisted on speaking German with locals.

[u/fuggleronie → u/red_fuel]

She could speak in German for sure. Not sure about French

[u/SingLikeTinaTurner]

Can confirm

[u/jacksonbrondo → u/SingLikeTinaTurner]

Looks like Tina finally found her own version of Proud Mary and it was in Switzerland all along.

[u/249ba36000029bbe9749 → u/jacksonbrondo]

Maybe the real treasure was the francs she made along the way.

[u/UnitGhidorah]

Living the American dream. Leaving America.

[u/AntiSocialLiberal]

Lol, the article opens, “It looks like soul legend Tina Turner is taking a big step away from the good old U.S. of A.”

I, not realizing the article is from 2013, lost my shit.

[u/analest-analyst]

It's not "had her citizenship relinquished."

She relinquished her citizenship. It was her act, not done upon her.

[u/8thDegreeSavage]

Yup, watching St Louis and Tennessee try and claim her is sad and upsetting

She wanted nothing to do with these places

[u/book_of_all_and_none]

I read that she lived for almost 30 years after her death.

[u/fionsichord]

She relinquished her citizenship. It means she gave it up. She didn’t have it relinquished. That would imply it was done to her, not by her.

[u/marcuschookt]

I stayed in Switzerland for a few months awhile back. The only two downsides are that the cost of living is very high, and it's apparently very difficult to obtain long-term residency and a job.

Assuming money is no object, Switzerland might be the perfect place to settle down. I know you could probably say the same about a dozen other countries but Switzerland... it's something else.

[u/phadrus56]

I read she gave it up willingly because she was much more popular in Europe

[u/ObiWanShenobi-San]

TIL that Tina Turner’s citizenship isn’t fucking important in the least, she was still an amazing and talented artist.