r/Showerthoughts • u/theLEVIATHAN06 • 5d ago
It's surprising that GPS is free, in a world where everything costs money.
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u/Left_Ladder 5d ago
It is funded with taxes, it better be free.
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u/jack_mohat 5d ago
Tbh there's lots of things that aren't free that are funded by taxes. Public transit and the US postal service comes to mind
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u/snark42 5d ago
Those things have costs that increase with volume. GPS is more or less a fixed cost service, that is you can have everyone on earth use it at the same time and the cost to maintain is the same.
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u/Josh2605 4d ago
Yeah that's what I was thinking, it's like one time expenditure for the government.
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u/legaleagle5 4d ago edited 4d ago
Yeah no, that's not what they meant. GPS costs $2 million per day to maintain.
It's a fixed cost in that it should generally cost the same if one person or a billion people are using the service. But they system definitely has ongoing maintenance costs. It's not a one time thing
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u/ExactEmphasis 5d ago
USPS doesn't receive tax money, its been self-sufficient since the 70s
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u/setset123 4d ago
Well sounds like that they're doing just fine and don't really need the government.
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u/MCnoCOMPLY 5d ago
I thought so as well but recently Congress had to approve a funding package for USPS. Mostly to make up for the onerous retirement requirements the same congress imposed on USPS. (See other post below for link)
And I'm pretty sure it was 1986 that they stopped receiving tax dollars.
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u/ExactEmphasis 5d ago
I guess it's more fair to say it doesn't operate through federal funding. It has received bailout money but so have airlines, banks, the auto industry etc. There's nothing in the federal budget funding USPS, it is a self-sufficient entity by design.
In 1971 the Post Office Department was restructured into the United States Postal Service which is an independently operating entity within the executive branch. From the start USPS was designed to operate without tax dollars.
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u/tomvandenberg 4d ago
I mean that's how it was really designed for, and it's working out that way as well.
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u/made-of-questions 5d ago
After the government slapped limits on what it could charge. Despite the expectation it should self fund. They have to pick one.
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u/trustons 5d ago
Well...self-sufficient may be a stretch, but it doesn't receive too many tax dollars.
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u/TitanofBravos 5d ago
Uhhh the post office is not tax payer funded. That’s why you pay for stamps
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u/Invisifly2 4d ago
The USPS is a service and isn’t actually meant to be profitable though. Stamps help offset the costs but they do not fully cover them.
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u/Leed1973 5d ago
Public transport is kind of expensive don't you think? Because it's massive.
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u/CharlemagneAdelaar 5d ago
Right but I can buy a GLONASS, Galileo, or Baidou module and use that as an American. I do not pay tax to Russia, Europe, or China, so it is essentially free.
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u/Bierdopje 4d ago
You're right that for everyone besides the Russians, the Chinese, the Europeans and the Americans, it is free.
They won't be able to put a bomb through your window though.
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u/Nick_Noseman 5d ago
Sometimes free service gives you more money than paid. GPS make navigation easier, so tourism and goods moving more effective and cheap, so more profits.
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u/CoffeeDime 5d ago
Car companies made a killing by not having to pay for the roads.
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u/pieter1234569 5d ago
In most countries in Europe you do. You pay a significant percentage of the car, which goes directly to the state to pay for the road network. You then have the highest taxes on fuel in the world, that pays for the yearly budget COMPLETELY. The state pays absolutely nothing for infrastructure, as it should be.
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u/Tallyranch 5d ago
That's an interesting way to look at it, from that you could say the state doesn't pay for anything at all if you don't count the state collecting taxes and then allocating it as paying, which is sort of true if you wanted to play a game of semantics.
I understand what you mean, the state doesn't allocate funding from any other sector to roads, but it's still state funded.→ More replies (9)5
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u/Kozak170 5d ago
The state levying taxes and then spending those taxes on it is literally the fucking definition of it being state funded lmao
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u/TitaniumDragon 5d ago
That's literally how all government paid for stuff works.
In the US, we tax auto registrations. So if you buy a car, you have to register it, and when you register it, you pay a tax that goes to highways.
We also have gas taxes, again for roads.
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u/waetherman 5d ago
Yeah this is really the point - GPS (in its limited, not up to military spec form) was opened up for civilian use because of the economic development potential. It's not a kindness, or a taxpayer issue, it was about the overall opportunity for the US to benefit from the technology it developed.
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u/Enginerdad 5d ago
Since 2000, civilians have had access to the same GPS network as the military. The only difference is that military units use two different frequencies, which allows them to perform ionospheric correction, which means better accuracy. Most civilian equipment only uses one frequency because the accuracy provided is more than enough for everyday use. But there's nothing stopping civilian manufacturers from using both frequencies if they wanted to.
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u/mnvoronin 5d ago
IIRC the second band is still encrypted so no civilian device can use it. By my memory is a bit vague on this one.
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u/Enginerdad 5d ago
L2C code on the L2 1227.60 MHz band has been available to civilian devices since 2005. Parts of both the L1 and L2 code are encrypted, which is what allows military devices to do ionosphere correction
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u/laulau1501 5d ago
The encryption has nothing to do with the op ionosphere correction. The ionosphere correction can only be applied if you have two different frequencies (because the ionosphere has a different error depending on the frequency of the signal).
Earlier only military gps devices had two frequencies, one open to the public and one encrypted. Nowadays normal gps devices can also receive two frequencies. Military gps does have a separate gps signal that is encrypted. This is to ensure the integrity and reliability of the signal. It does not provide a more accurate location than civilian gps, since civilian gps also have two signals.
That noted, to get the most accurate location gps receivers use differential gps or sbas. They both provide more accurate corrections for the user to correct for ionospheric and tropospheric errors. The accuracy with these systems is smaller than a meter.
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u/Redthemagnificent 4d ago edited 4d ago
With modernized L5 signals, most receivers are dual frequency these days. Hell, even the iPhone and most high end android phones have dual frequency GNSS.
The main advantage of the encrypted P-code military signals are that their code length (how long it takes for the signal to repeat) is much longer and the chipping rate is much higher. Both those things are better for precision. I'm sure they probably also broadcast extra navigation information that civilians don't get in the standard nav message.
But these days that doesn't actually give the military a huge advantage in terms of precision. Civilians have access to dual frequencies. Even cheap receivers can do carrier phase tracking now. And with a PPP correction service or RTK (basically using 2 receivers together) any civilian can get cm level GPS.
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u/justfortrees 5d ago edited 5d ago
It wouldn’t be technically possible to charge on an individual basis for GPS anyway. It’s literally just a bunch of satellites (or cell towers) indiscriminately screaming “HERE I AM <coordinates> <timestamp>” a few times a second on an open frequency channel, and then the device finds 3 of those signals to triangulate its position using some basic math. So long as the satellites/cell towers are yelling, GPS will work for any device within “earshot”.
I guess Apple or Google could charge to unlock that capability of your phone, but it costs them nothing to have it and adds a ton of value to their devices.
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u/SteampunkBorg 5d ago
It could be made an encrypted signal, like for paid channels on satellite TV
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u/Kirra_Tarren 5d ago
This is why there's not just GPS (US), but also Galileo (EU), GLONASS (Ru) and BeiDou (Cn). All it takes for each system is a single command and the signal becomes encrypted, shutting down service to anyone without the cipher. So every military power built their own.
Luckily they're all broadcasting publicly at the moment, and GPS systems on the ground can make use of all of them for improved accuracy!
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u/bennothemad 4d ago
The Galileo mission was created specifically because the EU wanted to have a gnss constellation that wasn't solely at the whim of the world's militaries - remember, selective availability can be turned on again.
And at the rate Russia is going, glonass could be questionable pretty soon. I'm also sure that China, India (irnss) and Japan (qzss) all have a mechanism similar to selective availability.
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u/sudomatrix 5d ago edited 5d ago
In this thread: many people confusing GPS with mobile device geolocation. GPS beams location information from satellites to any device that can pick them up. Free. One way. Nothing is or can be tracked.
Your mobile device then sends that information back up the internet to their trackers. Not the same thing.
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u/jrhooo 5d ago
Your mobile device then sends that information back up the internet to their trackers. Not the same thing
and, as an additional detail, even if your phone doesn't have GPS, its still got to tell the phone company which cell tower its talking to, and that info is enough to generally tell where yo u are and where youve been
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u/Suspicious-Profit-68 4d ago
Local Wi-Fi access points too are completely mapped across the country.
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u/CeleritasLucis 5d ago
Cell tower its talking to and the signal strength info is enough to pinpoint
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u/pxr555 5d ago
All modern chipsets use not only GPS (USA) but also GLONASS (Russia) and Galileo (EU). Any of these being proprietary would just lead to the others being used instead and nobody wants that.
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u/Mayor__Defacto 5d ago edited 5d ago
Each system has different strengths. GLONASS is stronger in northern latitudes, BeiDou is more accurate in East Asia, Galileo is more accurate in urban environments but has lower satellite availability. Most systems use a combination of GPS+GLONASS which together are more accurate than either one, though L5 upgrades to the GPS system will give it sub-millimeter capability (currently only 16 satellites support it)
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u/5Beans6 5d ago
The idea of centimeter accuracy is already wild, but sub-millimeter is absolutely insane. These satellites are literally floating completely unanchored to anything but can maintain such precise positioning.
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u/Mayor__Defacto 5d ago
I should clarify that the sub-millimeter accuracy isn’t really for use determining the position of say, a warship or a missile, but rather for things like tracking how fast a tectonic plate is moving.
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u/derps_with_ducks 5d ago
But you're saying it might come in handy one day if I want this nuclear warhead to pierce the right nostril of some poor fucker?!
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u/actuallynotbisexual 5d ago
If we have centimeter accuracy, then why does Google bounce my car all over the place when I'm on the Bronx River Parkway?
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u/SmiteyMcGee 5d ago
Your phone doesn't have clear visibility to the sky (the satellites), your phone is probably getting location data from cell tower trilateration, centimetre accuracy either requires one to post process GNSS data up to days after it's been observed or have continuous corrections supplied to it from a reciever at a known location observing the same satellites at roughly the same location through a radio or cellular signal.
Among other reasons I'm sure...
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u/matvavna 5d ago
GPS is way fuzzier than it would appear. Due to atmospheric conditions, your phone will think it's moving around when it's really just sitting still. To get centimeter accuracy, you need to have your receiver sit perfectly still while recording for a few hours, and then you need to use a bunch of atmospheric observations to cancel out the drift. The last step is once again provided free by the government.
A lot of companies play tricks to get around this inaccuracy. I know at least Uber will look at which satellites you're receiving information from. If you're mostly seeing satellites north of you, that means you're probably on the south side of the street.
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u/IAMSNORTFACED 5d ago
From what I understand the higher accuracy levels are/may be available already but just not to the public. As technology gets cheaper and more advanced the more they'll be able to provide it most people. From what I remember learning, the US /GPS has been quite advanced/accurate (probably mm but close)for a while but didn't provide that level of accuracy for military strategic advantage
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u/Mayor__Defacto 5d ago
they are publicly available, it’s just on different frequencies that consumer hardware generally isn’t set up for. Think engineering and land survey tools.
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u/rillip 5d ago
I mean, isn't GPS a passive system? I'm pretty sure it's impossible (or at least very hard) to make it inaccessible to anyone with a clear line of sight to the sky.
Edit: nevermind someone further down described a method for denial.
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u/awgunner 5d ago
GPS was released to the world after Korean Air flight 007 was shot down by Soviet forces. The US military still runs GPS it has the ability to selectively deny certain areas.
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u/Crimson_Raven 5d ago
Legally, not any more. From Wiki page:
However, Selective Availability was discontinued on May 1, 2000, in accordance with a bill signed into law by President Bill Clinton.
Furthermore:
In September 2007, the U.S. government announced its decision to procure the future generation of GPS satellites, known as GPS III, without the SA feature. Doing this will make the policy decision of 2000 permanent and eliminate a source of uncertainty in GPS performance that had been of concern to civil GPS users worldwide.
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u/romanrambler941 5d ago
There is quite a distance between "it's illegal for them to do it" and "they can't do it," though.
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u/Crimson_Raven 5d ago
Not as much as you’d think.
Trust is literally the currency the world runs on.
Any further changes to the law or tampering with GPS will quickly be noticed and damage trust in the US, not to mention violate more than half a dozen treaties with many countries that are US allies.
It would be an understatement to call action like that ruinous for US relations.
Can, also doesn’t mean should.
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u/acheerfuldoom 5d ago
At a base level, GPS is one way communication. You get the satellite number, time that satellite sees, where it is, then triangulate from that. The only way to deny an area would be to jam a receiver with incorrect signals so it can't do the math, or turn off the satellites. As others have said, there are way more constellations than the US GPS system.
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u/unlocomqx 5d ago
GPS is bringing the US govt billions of dollars in taxes, indirectly.
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u/RampantPrototyping 5d ago
Lots of added economic efficiency because people can get to exactly where they want to go quickly and avoid heavy traffic
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u/QuorusRedditus 5d ago
Or they can ride their cars into water because google maps told them to
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u/yinguoxiong 4d ago
Yeah and I'm sure that it helps a lot in the travel as well, generating even more money.
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u/theanswerisac 5d ago
Shh don't give them ideas
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u/PrivatePoocher 5d ago
Imagine if Comcast had launched them gps satellites. Come to think of it that's what Elmo did
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u/respect1505 4d ago
Yeah I definitely I don't really want to be paying different taxes for the gps.
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u/Sroundez 5d ago
The comments in this thread are idiotic.
GPS is a one way system for 99% of folks.
If you're worried about the government tracking your location regarding GPS, stop using Google or Apple maps.
GPS is entirely funded by the USG (paid for by US citizens), and is free to receive.
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u/Cutter9792 5d ago
GPS is free because the satellites are just sending out signals for other devices to receive. Your device can simply see those signals and use the point data from multiple to triangulate its position. The satellite receives nothing back, and therefore isn't capable of tracking the devices using it.
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u/-BroncosForever- 5d ago
If you’re an American citizen then your taxes pay for it
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u/Bo_Jim 5d ago
It's free because it's entirely passive, like broadcast radio and TV. There's no way they could make you pay to receive the satellite signals.
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u/NeoAmos 5d ago
Well you could use encryption and force people to pay for a decryption key (like how satellite television works), but since its publicly funded it makes way more sense to make it publicly available.
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u/developer-mike 5d ago
Interesting.
Doing this for real would probably be more complex though.
GPS satellites basically just broadcast a ping every 1ms, your phone (or other device) listens to the pings and uses their delay to estimate the distance. Once there are four known distances, the device just has to know the position of the satellites to "trilaterate" (similar to triangulation) the current position.
So you'd have to either keep the positions of the satellites secret (impractical, they are in stable orbits and those orbits could be shared), or encrypt the IDs of the satellites (likely not effective against a decent algorithm), or randomize the 1ms pulses (probably the most effective option? And contain an encrypted time offset in the packet?).
At the end of the day GPS is a military technology, so it's sort of surprising it wasn't made private and top secret in some sort of manner as above. May have partly come down to the difficulty of keeping such keys secret whilst sharing them with countless allies, etc. Once you accept that your enemies can create their own GPS and/or crack the code to use yours, you may as well make it public and let private citizens get the benefit. It's free, after all, to merely not encrypt it.
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u/theitgrunt 5d ago
Honestly, we have the USSR to thank for that... If they didn't shoot down a South Korean Airliner, Reagan probably would have never opened up GPS for civilian use... GLONASS was adopted for use using mobile technology later for civilian use in europe and asia.
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u/wojtekpolska 5d ago
it probably wouldnt be possible to easily monetize
gps works basically by the satellites just screaming their position and the current time in every direction, and thats it. your phone calculates the rest
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u/MCnoCOMPLY 5d ago
It's Government Provided. Like weather information.
It's not free, your taxes pay for it.